临时生命的叠加问题

[水瓶盖•迷惘记忆•八哥大王I世]

呃，太古龙姥爷怎么不骂我把3版和3.5版的FAQ,还明显有矛盾的给混一块了.....

我不清楚太古龙姥爷没有愤怒的纠正我犯的一堆错误到底。只能总结下在翻了老外论坛后，老外对这方面的意见。可惜果园我搜索翻了几页就没找到过相关讨论的帖子。
老外大致可以分成两派，一派认为根据FAQ还有万律没法叠；另一派则认为这只能说明官方不靠谱，明显违背了此类能力的设计意图；尤其当把3版和3.5版的FAQ放一块之后，所有人都一致同意卫生纸虽然十分热爱使用效应一词，但他们也基本从不解释效应的具体定义。而对于太古龙姥爷主张严重的损害在于，虽然这么讲过，但至少就其逻辑逆推来说包含官方在内至少他们都觉得比如吸血鬼（老外是真的谜之喜欢吸血鬼，连PF都在举吸血鬼，结果被官方账号回应不叠，吃了一村也只能加5临命）使用能量吸取的时候，不管吸谁或者叠不叠，效应肯定算是the same effect。而来源（source）和效应（effect）并不是一个意思。
有关分裂，老外是想过通过追踪栈，可以在不违背FAQ的前提下凑够生命。当然官方没有解释过是否如此，而设计师意图也明显是可叠的。
于是乎至少太古龙姥爷宣称的我不接受官方逻辑，实在是个有点过分的指控。毕竟卫生纸表现的近乎精分，处于又想叠，又不希望可以轻松整个破百临命出来的态度。估计他们当年是没有类似万智设计流程里专门负责律规则的人吧。
最后，虽然我知道把counts as当SQL里的count语句是个明显的错误，但既然幽灵只有一次攻击，这导致它的全回合攻击等价于攻击，所以....我们真的不能考虑一些有毛病的解释吗？

[Tekkaman Last]

如果一个能力主动使用，直接效果是给临命那么属于multiple applications，一个能力效果是从不同生物或者不同次的攻击或者对不同的效应的起效，然后获得加值，属于multiple。一个能力下属的多次命中（伤害，解除效应等等等）等获得的临命明确叠加的例子比比皆是，所谓子效应明显属于multiple。
如果这些加值不能叠，既然死一个和死一百个加值一样，那么for each death这个根本没意义。明显是可以叠的。

那我们就绕回太古龙姥爷一开给的这段来了
FAQ date updated 3/14/08 p110
Do temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect stack? What about from different effects? If I have temporary hit points from multiple sources, how should I apply damage?
   Temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from different sources stack, but you must keep track of them separately.
    For example, imagine a character who gained 15 temporary hit points from an aid spell. After taking 8 points of damage,she has 7 temporary hit points left from the spell. If another aid spell were cast on the same character granting 12 temporary hit points, this total would replace the other spell’s total, meaning the character would now have 12 temporary hit points (rather than 19). If the character then cast false life on herself, she would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit points from the aid spell.
  This also applies to temporary hit points gained from energy drain and similar special abilities. Each successful attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as only one application of the effect). For example, a wight gains 5 temporary hit points each time it bestows a negative level with its slam attack. If it bestows another negative level while it has 2 temporary hit points remaining from the first attack, the new temporary hit points would replace the old ones.
  Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply of temporary hit points separately

 按这段Each successful attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as only one application of the effect).
 临命可叠是因为one application]of the effect，虽然明显跟我想法不大一样，但如果我们采用这条 一个能力下属的多次命中（伤害，解除效应等等等）等获得的临命明确叠加的例子比比皆是，所谓子效应明显属于multiple。就是错的。我们就没法通过临命可叠来证明不同源，也就无法证加值叠加了；

以及6/27/03 p33
How is the body feeder weapon quality supposed to work?Do the temporary hit points from the weapon stack? The same question applies tomind feederweapons and to spelleffects, such as vampiric touch.Temporary hit points from abody feeder weapon stack with each other, but not with temporary hit points from any other source. Likewise, temporary psionic points from amind feeder weapon stack, but not with temporary psionic points from anyother source.In general, any effect that allows you to gain temporary hit points over time allows you to stack those points, but only those points. For example, if you use the vampiric touch spell,the temporary hit points you gain from that particular casting ofthe spell stack. They don’t stack with the temporary hit points you get from an aid spell, nor would the effects of two vampiric touch or aid spells stack. If you were to use two body feeder weapons (or two mind feeder weapons), you could not stack the temporary points from the two weapons

In general, any effect that allows you to gain temporary hit points over time allows you to stack those points, but only those points. For example, if you use the vampiric touch spell,the temporary hit points you gain from that particular casting ofthe spell stack. 这段可以认为跟前面那个同理
但后面的They don’t stack with the temporary hit points you get from an aid spell, nor would the effects of two vampiric touch or aid spells stack. If you were to use two body feeder weapons (or two mind feeder weapons), you could not stack the temporary points from the two weapons。
如果这段跟万律不冲突，就意味这from multiple applications of the same effect don’t stack起效，那起效方式是吸血鬼之触和援助术是multiple applications而临命都是the same effect吗？那还有必要加the same effect吗？

吸血鬼之触和援助术这种不需要考虑，因为就算它不是同来源也不会叠，因为这两个是法术。同名法术重复不起效这是法术的规则。所以哪怕正常表达因该叠的玩意你是靠多次施展的法术也不会叠。除非特例。这点在法术里是很明显的。而噬命武器是本身描述不叠。

Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply of temporary hit points separately
但是从这一段来看，多个临命处于一种变相叠加的状态，也就是你在一次攻击中确实只能收益于一次临命。但是如果一刀把一个临命打爆了，下一次伤害就会从另一个较旧的临命里扣的诡异状态
至于同一个能力造成多次不同攻击获得的加值不同源在规则书里有正面描述
While you are in this stance,
you whip yourself into a terrible
rage. When you score a critical
hit against an opponent, you
enter a near frenzied state from
the sight and smell of blood.
You gain a +1 bonus on attack
rolls and damage rolls. Because
this is an untyped bonus, it
stacks with each successful
critical hit you score.
 If you go more than 1
minute without achieving a
critical hit, you no longer gain
the benefi t of the stance.

Because this is an untyped bonus, it stacks with each successful critical hit you score.
这句话是非常明确的就是这么写的，而什么情况下untyped bonus也就是无名加值可以叠呢？那只能是不同源的情况下。
所以只要这个能力的描述不被推翻，不同次攻击获得加值就是不同源的。而且这段描述也不是对这个能力的特例，因为它不是说这个能力可以叠加，而是Because this is an untyped bonus。也就是这段话不是对这个能力的特例而是对untyped bonus的描述。顺便找FAQ不是随便找一个就算的。你还得看不同FAQ和规则的出版时间和现在的承认情况。比如贤者问答和CC的FAQ现在已经被官方踢掉了。不能再作为依据，又比如艾伯伦机关人的特殊护甲能力在自然变形后到底会不会保留在前后几年的不同书和FAQ里被反复推翻。最终状态是可以保留。所以这些都需要考虑到，所以你先去找可以把TOB里这个能力的描述推翻的FAQ吧

[Tekkaman Last]

再看MM5的这个怪
Overdrive Healing (Su): This ability works like fast healing 5, but the thrall can gain hit points beyond its full normal hit points as temporary hit points. The Thoon thrall’s skin begins to blister and swell when this happens, and the thrall grows visibly larger. Once its temporary hit points equal or exceed its full normal hit points, the Thoon thrall must make a save every round or explode (see below).
这段话，无论用歪理去解读，都只能解读为临时生命可以叠加。
如果临时生命的堆叠是特例，正常规则不允许叠，那么这里应该会有这个能力作为特例可以叠加的描述。而反而是噬命武器反而会有专门的描述说不能叠。
只能说不同的官方作者对于规则的理解是不一样的。但是从各本规则书里的作者来看，倾向于可以叠的比较多。

[水瓶盖•迷惘记忆•八哥大王I世]

吸血鬼之触和援助术这种不需要考虑，因为就算它不是同来源也不会叠，因为这两个是法术。同名法术重复不起效这是法术的规则。所以哪怕正常表达因该叠的玩意你是靠多次施展的法术也不会叠。除非特例。这点在法术里是很明显的。而噬命武器是本身描述不叠。

Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply of temporary hit points separately
但是从这一段来看，多个临命处于一种变相叠加的状态，也就是你在一次攻击中确实只能收益于一次临命。但是如果一刀把一个临命打爆了，下一次伤害就会从另一个较旧的临命里扣的诡异状态
至于同一个能力造成多次不同攻击获得的加值不同源在规则书里有正面描述
While you are in this stance,
you whip yourself into a terrible
rage. When you score a critical
hit against an opponent, you
enter a near frenzied state from
the sight and smell of blood.
You gain a +1 bonus on attack
rolls and damage rolls. Because
this is an untyped bonus, it
stacks with each successful
critical hit you score.
 If you go more than 1
minute without achieving a
critical hit, you no longer gain
the benefi t of the stance.

Because this is an untyped bonus, it stacks with each successful critical hit you score.
这句话是非常明确的就是这么写的，而什么情况下untyped bonus也就是无名加值可以叠呢？那只能是不同源的情况下。
所以只要这个能力的描述不被推翻，不同次攻击获得加值就是不同源的。而且这段描述也不是对这个能力的特例，因为它不是说这个能力可以叠加，而是Because this is an untyped bonus。也就是这段话不是对这个能力的特例而是对untyped bonus的描述。顺便找FAQ不是随便找一个就算的。你还得看不同FAQ和规则的出版时间和现在的承认情况。比如贤者问答和CC的FAQ现在已经被官方踢掉了。不能再作为依据，又比如艾伯伦机关人的特殊护甲能力在自然变形后到底会不会保留在前后几年的不同书和FAQ里被反复推翻。最终状态是可以保留。所以这些都需要考虑到，所以你先去找可以把TOB里这个能力的描述推翻的FAQ吧

https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/3ECollectedErrata.ZIP  从这个地址和时间来说，我觉得这份里的应该就是最后了。如果太古龙姥爷能提供更新的地址就太好了，那样也许可以直接结束问题。
然后临命相关问题，首先太古龙姥爷描述的状态老外一般叫重叠（overlap）,它更常出场的地方是比如你穿了防御护腕和盔甲，或者戴着+2力量腰带又有牛力的时候。实际来说去掉单纯希望不死生物等等大杀特杀的人，老外反对不叠的主要理由就是太古龙姥爷举的这个情况，这会大量增加记录成本，但影响又很微妙。如果考虑到最高适用这点似乎总是起效，以及火焰护盾之类有反伤效果的玩意...只能说就算同意不叠，应该也没人真的会在跑团的时候像电脑执行程序一样认真执行这条吧。
考虑到FAQ跟万律连用词都高度相似，用老外的话说就是虽然不想认，但只能认为这是答题者对万律的解释。而这只能导出万律虽然是官方钦定比其他的更优先也不妨碍它里面的内容属于作者是不是连脑内模拟都不做级的有病.我还会在下面重复证明这点。

至于加值，这个问题只能说调查结果相当糟糕。首先按万律加值不叠的条件是同效应，但就跟我一开始提过的一样官方完全没有对同效应的解释，而且在判断叠加的时候更多用来源（source）这个词描述，我们从临时生命的两个FAQ就很容易看出来这点。引用老外的一个比喻就是如果说加值或者别的什么是人喝到的水，那么水龙头，水源，乃至流的是可乐或者白开水都可以使用the same effect这个形容，但官方对the same effect的理解已经超越悲剧跨入滑稽戏的级别了。
实际上我可以用这本FAQ自己的内容来证明，官方有多擅长互相背刺。
Is a warforged character affected by exposure toextreme weather?
In general, warforged suffer the same effects from extreme weather as any other character. For example, they’re just asprone to suffering nonlethal damage from heat or cold as anyone else.

When a cleric has a temporary bonus to his Charisma score, does it affect his turning check or turning damage?Does it change the number of times he can turn or rebukeper day?
Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one.

The final sentence in the item description refers to theglove itself. If the glove’s magicis dispelled or suppressed, anyitem stored in the glove pops out. In your example, ifdispelmagicis used against the glove, the sword stored in the glovepops out if the spell succeeds. Because the glove is a permanentmagic item, the dispel effect is only temporary (see thedispelmagicspell description), and you can place the item back in theglove when it recovers from the effect. The same effect wouldoccur if you take the glove into anantimagic field.

虽然对于每个单独的问题，他们使用的同效应一词的定义域是显然明确的，但如果把这些跟包括临命那个连一块看....如果这些the same effect等价，那么援助术和吸血鬼之触都能说是不叠的.jpg
有关TOB的内容
Q: Does the AC bonus of the swordsage (from Tome of Battle) stack with the AC bonus of the monk, even though they are both based on Wisdom modifier?
A: No. The swordsage’s AC bonus, allowing the swordsage to apply her Wisdom bonus to her armor class, mimics the ability of the monk’s AC bonus. Since these abilities share the same name and have the same effect, they will not stack.
引用
问：贤者之剑的AC奖励是否与武僧的AC奖励叠加，即使它们同样是基于感知加值？
答：不行。贤者之剑能够将感知加值应用于防御等级上，该能力模仿了武僧AC奖励。因为这两个能力分享了同样的名称与效果，所以它们不能叠加。
神猪翻的TOB的FAQ整合,我是不知道该从那头开始吐槽好。老外在有人掏出这条的感想是不如我们一块骂卫生纸算了。
总之就结论而言，某本号称有最高优先级的万律虽然写了Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect. 但什么是the same effect跟这本书没有半点关系，实属自由美利坚了。其实在贴吧被吞的帖子里我写过，万律的真实意图很可能是在告诉我们一切从心.jpg